People, work, clients, Andrew, agency, advertising, Cooper, ads, business, mad men, bit, Peter, industry, hospitality, life, boards, ideas, question, lost, AK


Richard Miller, Siobhan Miller, Andrew Killey


Richard Miller 00:05

Welcome to the first episode of The Mad Man & The Hospitalian, proudly sponsored by Crisp & Co and brought to you from the studios of Podcast Central in Kent Town, South Australia. This series delves into the lives of some of Australia’s most prolific and accomplished professionals, analyzing their career successes and failures, and asking the ultimate question, what is your definition of a fruitful life? My name is Richard Miller, your resident Mad Man,


Siobhan Miller 00:28

and I’m Siobhan Miller, your Hospitalian.


Richard Miller 00:30

Now Siobhan, I guess given this is our debut episode, we’d better give a bit of background to the listeners. Tell me, Hospitalian, did that – did you just make that up?


Siobhan Miller 00:39

Well, you might think so but no I didn’t, it is actually a real word. So Hospitalian; firstly, it’s a nod to my experience in the industry over the last 20 years, which took me from bars and restaurants in the UK, to managing venues here in Australia. It’s a real passion of mine and it really always will be, and though I’ve shifted over to ‘the light side’, in recent years –


Richard Miller 00:59

– Or ‘the dark side’ –


Siobhan Miller 01:00

– I’ve definitely taken the hospitality mentality with me. And this is the more important part of the term Hospitalian, because it refers to the attitude and the culture. So a hospitality mentality really means that it’s never too early, it’s never too late, and it’s never too difficult. So service is what you do to somebody, but hospitality is how it makes them feel. So doing what you weren’t asked, not just what you were, and that mentality and that culture is really key in any industry.


Richard Miller 01:27

That makes pretty good sense.


Siobhan Miller 01:29

Mm. So; Richard,


Richard Miller 01:31



Siobhan Miller 01:32

You’ve been called a lot by a lot.


Richard Miller 01:34

You know it.


Siobhan Miller 01:35

Mad Man though, what’s that about?


Richard Miller 01:37

Well, that’s a good question. Well, you’d be too young to remember this, but Mad Men was a TV series in the 90s, and it was set in an ad agency in Madison Avenue in New York, and I think our guest from today actually worked on that strip at some point. So the ad execs, well they coined themselves as ‘Mad Men’ and nowadays ad agency guys are known as ‘Mad Men’. So having spent 15 years in the game and now being Brand Director at Crisp & Co, we definitely wish that we were ‘Mad Men’, and we wish that we could operate the same way as those guys did in the 60s and 70s, but obviously we can’t. But today, we are truly honored Siobhan, to have one of my favorite people in the studio, and we’re truly honored to have one of the original Mad Men with us, who is Andrew Killey. Now before you –


Andrew Killey 02:24

G’day Richard, g’day Siobhan


Richard Miller 02:24

G’day Andrew,


Siobhan Miller 02:25

Oh, hey!


Richard Miller 02:26

– It’s a pleasure to see you, thanks for wandering in. Well a bit of background on AK before we get the ball rolling with him, is that AK grew up in Cronulla, in Sydney. I bet you don’t even know where that is do you Siobhan?


Siobhan Miller 02:36



Richard Miller 02:37

Well he played football, he played cricket, he played the guitar in a band. And then he moved to Adelaide to follow his musical aspirations, but fell into a junior role in advertising, purely by chance I believe.


Andrew Killey 02:49



Richard Miller 02:50

Now Andrew’s career has taken him around the world, working at some of the world’s major agencies, whilst growing global brands. Andrew was the ‘K’ in KWP, when the highly successful creative agency was established in the 90’s, with his fellow creative director, Peter Withy, and art director, Lyn Punshon. Now some five I think? Some five years since your retirement, Andrew?


Andrew Killey 03:11



Richard Miller 03:11

And you still play a fairly prominent and active role on multiple boards, and as a highly sought after creative consultant to clients and ad agencies nationally. Andrew Killey, welcome to the Mad Man & The Hospitalian.


Andrew Killey 03:21

Thanks very much, good to be here.


Richard Miller 03:23

It’s a pleasure.


Andrew Killey 03:24

The inaugural!


Richard Miller 03:25

The inaugural! The virgin!


Andrew Killey 03:26

Yeah, That don’t – well…


Siobhan Miller 03:28

Speak for yourselves.


Andrew Killey 03:29

That’s right. I’d like to just clear one thing up. I’m not the original ‘Mad Man’. Advertising was going even before I was born.


Richard Miller 03:39

Was it really?


Andrew Killey 03:40

Yes, yes.


Richard Miller 03:40

Gosh, well that will – that is actually a newsflash.


Andrew Killey 03:43

Well, the original advertising of course; just to add some real history to this, was done by the prostitutes of Egypt.


Richard Miller 03:53



Andrew Killey 03:54

And – they did – the way they did it, they put red lipstick on, and that was an ad to say, ‘yes, I’m up for it’.


Richard Miller 04:01

‘I’m ready, I’m available. I’m ready to go.’


Andrew Killey 04:02

And you think about prostitutes advertising, nothing much changed.


Richard Miller 04:07

Well, what we’re gonna do AK, is we’re just gonna get you warmed up a bit, and Siobhan’s got the quick question round.


Andrew Killey 04:14



Siobhan Miller 04:14

Oh yeah, we do. So here’s the thing with quick questions, there’s 10 of them. Don’t think about it.


Andrew Killey 04:20



Siobhan Miller 04:20

First answer. Just gonna lube you up.


Andrew Killey 04:23



Siobhan Miller 04:24

All right, are you ready?


Richard Miller 04:27



Andrew Killey 04:28

Yes! Sorry, yes.


Siobhan Miller 04:29

Wow, he’s not ready –


Andrew Killey 04:31

Okay, no no no –


Richard Miller 04:31

Well he is now.


Siobhan Miller 04:32

Okay, here’s the thing about quick question round.


Andrew Killey 04:34

Yeah yeah yeah.


Siobhan Miller 04:35

Right. Okay. Let’s go: favorite band of all time?


Andrew Killey 04:39

The Rolling Stones.


Siobhan Miller 04:40

One place in the world you want to see before you die?


Andrew Killey 04:44

I want to go back to Italy.


Siobhan Miller 04:46

One ingredient that should never be on a pizza?


Andrew Killey 04:50



Siobhan Miller 04:51

Favorite animal to have as a pet?


Andrew Killey 04:53

A dog.


Siobhan Miller 04:54

Favorite animal to have as a meal?


Andrew Killey 04:56

A dog.


Siobhan Miller 04:59

Your best year yet?


Andrew Killey 05:01

This year.


Siobhan Miller 05:02

Nice. Ultimate pet hate?


Andrew Killey 05:05

Negative people.


Siobhan Miller 05:08

Beer or wine?


Andrew Killey 05:10

Too hard to –


Siobhan Miller 05:11

Don’t think about it. Don’t think about it. Beer or wine, beer or wine, beer or wine.


Andrew Killey 05:14

Beer and wine.


Siobhan Miller 05:15

Oh god. Summer or winter?


Andrew Killey 05:17

Oh, summer.


Siobhan Miller 05:17

Mad Man or Hospitalian?


Andrew Killey 05:17

Uhm –


Siobhan Miller 05:18

– Don’t think about it –


Andrew Killey 05:21

– Mad Man


Siobhan Miller 05:22

Oh you thought about it. Cheater.


Andrew Killey 05:24



Richard Miller 05:27

Well that certainly gives us an insight into some of Andrew’s character.


Siobhan Miller 05:29

It really really does, and you know, you’re Mad Man or Hospitalian; you’re kind of a little bit of both.


Richard Miller 05:34



Andrew Killey 05:34

Ah. Well, I’m glad to hear that.


Siobhan Miller 05:38

Am I right?


Richard Miller 05:39

Well, you are right. Well AK, so George Patterson, Clemenger, BBDO, Adelaide, New York, then KWP! What was the point that you knew you had a successful career in advertising ahead of you?


Andrew Killey 05:55

You know what, I don’t think you can ever say ‘I’m successful’, I really don’t. That success is something I think that other people award you. Like, ‘he’s good at it’, or ‘she’s good at that,’ or ‘that’. But, what I did know, reasonably early in the piece is that I liked it, and it sort of suited my temperament, my basic things – skills. It made me work with people. So, there was nothing not to like about it, and I’m glad to say, that the more I got into advertising, I found out that it actually works. It builds companies, it builds businesses, as probably the cheapest way to build companies and businesses, to advertise. And it gets brands famous and gets people to know what brands mean in their lives, and it’s interesting, and it’s fun.


Richard Miller 06:52

Mhm. And you see sort of a ‘need’ followed by a result and it gives you a sense of accomplishment.


Andrew Killey 06:59

Yeah. It’s really great when you do something and you see it works.


Richard Miller 07:02



Andrew Killey 07:02

You know, I mean I think good advertising people are a bit childlike. And they like to be sort of patted on the head and, ‘gee, you did a good job there’, sort of thing. It’s a good job, and it’s a great industry, and always was and always will be.


Richard Miller 07:18

And it’s probably a little bit, maybe a bit dramatic to say, but I’ve often said to my clients that when you write an idea, and you create that concept, and then you present it to them, it’s almost like watching your child being born, isn’t it?


Andrew Killey 07:46

It is. And that’s – and to extend that analogy. I think that the common, or the more recent habit, of just sending your ads through to clients online is disgraceful. I mean it’s like you wouldn’t – you don’t put your kid on a bus for the first day at school, you take them along, and you present them, and you’re with them. I think that’s one of the things that we’re losing a bit in the industry. Not everywhere, but certain people just say, ‘I’ll send you – I’ll email you the ad’.


Richard Miller 08:05



Andrew Killey 08:06

So what does that say? It just says it’s a commodity?


Richard Miller 08:09

And isn’t it about you know, we talk about that with product as well, is that the way we package a product, says a lot about the product itself. And so you know, at Crisp & Co, when we present a TV concept, we still do it on blackboards.


Andrew Killey 08:21



Richard Miller 08:22

On presentation boards. And quite often, you know, lots of people I know, present it digitally, on screens and that. It kind of loses the romance a wee bit, doesn’t it?


Andrew Killey 08:30

Yeah, I think it’s that thing about being able to talk through the idea, and if you can hold something up and point to things, and say you know, ‘that person there will be wearing this sort of clothing, at this time of day’, and that sort of business, that’s really good. You’re interrogating your idea more anyhow.


Richard Miller 08:57



Andrew Killey 08:58

And I think you’re showing your client respect.


Richard Miller 09:01



Andrew Killey 09:01

By presenting it properly.


Richard Miller 09:03



Siobhan Miller 09:04

Now, I know that you developed a lot of ideas for the Coopers brewery.


Andrew Killey 09:08



Siobhan Miller 09:11

Do you have one that was a standout, during your career? And if you did, what was it, in your opinion, that made it work?


Andrew Killey 09:20

Well, I was Creative Director, so I didn’t have all the ideas. That’s the first thing.


Siobhan Miller 09:25

Oh ok. Well who did, let’s get them in.


Andrew Killey 09:27

Well, we all did, and that was the thing about the client, everyone wanted to work on it, and everyone did, and they’re a marvelous client. Look, there’ve been, at the risk of sounding like a politician, there have been so many great Coopers campaigns that were done prior to KWP! at Clemenger. I mean they were the agency that did ‘Cloudy but Fine’.


Siobhan Miller 09:51



Andrew Killey 09:52

I mean, that’s got to be one of the great advertising campaigns of all time. And then when we, KWP!, got the business, we did some really, really good stuff too. But a lot of people, I think the ‘dark side of the family’, is one that I’ll always love. That was when they poured out a dark ale, and we used the chairman of the company, Max Cooper, as the talent. We put him in sunglasses and all that. Glenn Cooper was our client, he was the marketing guy, and it took a lot of courage by Glenn to go to the chairman and say, ‘Hey, we’re going to put you in sunglasses and use you in an ad’. But, as it turned out, it was such an endearing campaign, and it really worked. I think that’s the key to a lot of the Coopers stuff, you got to get it. You got to understand what Coopers stands for, and how it talks about itself, and how it doesn’t talk about itself.


Siobhan Miller 10:55



Andrew Killey 10:56

I mean, at the time, when we were doing the early days, and even today I would imagine, Coopers’ advertising budget is nowhere near as big as Lion Nathan, and CUB or whoever owns them this week. Because they are Australia’s last family owned, Australian owned, brewery of any consequence. But you had to get it, once you’ve got the Coopers vibe going, the ads became easier. But the ads became easier because the client was fantastic. I’ve sort of, I’ve answered it, but I haven’t answered your question.


Siobhan Miller 11:35

So your standout was probably the dark side really?


Andrew Killey 11:38

Well, now that’s one of them. I mean, there were other things we did for Love Handles, there was one called Love Handles. We did a fantastic campaign, done for Sydney, at the time when we were trying to get distribute – although, Coopers were trying to get distribution up there. And we used, sort of, outdoor signs and things like that, and the line was, ‘if it’s not at your local sell your house’. So there was always a quirkiness that we tried to put in, that was the Coopers tone of voice. So it’s sort of like picking your favorite kid in a way, I can’t do that. But we were blessed too at the time because, when we started the company we had, we got fantastic clients and they were fantastic people to work with, like, Yalumba, and UltraTune, and Adelaide Bank, which was Co-op Building Society in those days, Vili’s, SATC, RAA, we got AQIS in the end, that was using the Steve Irwin ads before he was sadly taken. In DFAT we came up with ‘Smart traveller’, which you know, they’re terrific. But I’ll tell you what the great thing was, the one common denominator was they were great clients who trusted us. And also we presented to the people who can make the decisions.


Richard Miller 12:59



Siobhan Miller 13:00



Andrew Killey 13:01

And they were the people that briefed us, the same person, one and the same. And they also had the courage, to approve work right there and then on the spot, and then tell their boards about it later or their management about it later, because they had a position of authority.


Richard Miller 13:16



Andrew Killey 13:17

I think that now, sadly, it seems the positions have turned into departments, and departments mean committees. I want to say, there’s not a statue in a park of the world devoted to a committee.


Siobhan Miller 13:35



Andrew Killey 13:37

Never will be.


Richard Miller 13:39

No. One of my favorite stories I’ve heard you tell was how you evolved with Vili.


Andrew Killey 13:49

Doesn’t matter how we got the first gig, we did, Peter Withy and I. We wrote some ads, we went down to the factory, we watched his family and he, you know, peeling potatoes and all the onions, all the beautiful meat and stuff, chopping it all up. It was clearly a really labour intensive family thing in that. So Peter and I went away and we wrote some really – and we wanted Vili to talk, him to be the voice, because he was, he was a great talker. His English was interesting. But he communicated well, he did communicate well. So we went back with the radio ads, when he showed it to him, and he said, ‘Ah, I don’t like these’, and we went, ‘well, they’re genius’. No, we didn’t say that. We said, ‘just read one’, and I think the truth is he; two things, I think he had mixed emotions. Number one, he had a very European sounding voice and he was a bit shy about that, and I think he might have found it a bit hard to read.


Richard Miller 15:03



Andrew Killey 15:03

In English, and that. So, we went away but he kept talking and talking and talking and we had a tape recorder there.


Richard Miller 15:12



Andrew Killey 15:12

And we taped all the things he said, and we went back to the office. Peter Withy came up with the idea. He said, he wrote this thing, and it said, ‘What would a bloke named Vili know about making a pie?’


Richard Miller 15:29



Andrew Killey 15:31

I read it, and then Peter said, ‘then we’ll just cut up what Vili says and we just shove it around sort of thing’, and I said, ‘Oh, that’s good’. So we went down, and we sort of put a scamp together, and we went down and played it to him. We played it, he said ‘Oh that’s better, that’s good, that’s good’. I said, ‘well, we’re gonna go away now and we’ve got to get a real voiceover’. And he said, ‘No, I want you to do it’.


Richard Miller 15:59



Andrew Killey 15:59

Now that was Vili’s call, and what was really interesting about him is, you know, my voice sounds like a sort of a western suburbs plumber. What it was I think, it was a tasteful use of sounds of voices in radio. Probably a bit better than ‘Hello’, that one at the moment.


Siobhan Miller 16:21

But how do you get better than that!


Andrew Killey 16:22

But it cut through is the point. From then on, what we did with Vili, he’d say, ‘we’re going to do some new ads, come around to my place’. We’d take a tape recorder around there, usually over a couple of bottles of fine red wine.


Richard Miller 16:37



Andrew Killey 16:38

He’s got an amazing cellar. He’d just talk about his new product, and then I’d go away, and then backfill the questions, to answer the questions that weren’t answered or –


Richard Miller 16:51

– That you wanted answered.


Andrew Killey 16:52

Yeah, well, yeah, yeah. So that was it. Once again, very good people, he and his wife, Rosemary, have became lifelong friends, and that built an empire.


Richard Miller 17:03

Yeah. And I think to your earlier point, Andrew, it’s clearly not as evident these days that, you know, advertising agencies back in the day were one of the trusted advisors, you know, you would go to your ad guy, like you would go to your accountant or your lawyer, and ask their advice, and it would be taken seriously.


Andrew Killey 17:20

Yeah, I don’t think all of them were trusted. We certainly were.


Richard Miller 17:25



Andrew Killey 17:26

No, but some were. There’s a fair amount of truth in what you said, you say. But I think that gets back to the point, that the person who briefed you, and you presented it back to, was the person that made the decision. So you actually had the chance to build better, sort of, bridges of trust and relationship. Now when you get, you know, faceless men on boards and women on boards, saying, ‘Oh, we can’t say that, because it’s politically not correct’, or it’s this or that, or you’ve got a committee of, you know, inner house people going, ‘you know, that doesn’t address women, single women with children’, you know, these sort of things. It makes it hard. All power to an agency today that can get good work through.


Richard Miller 18:17

Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, on that point, so, let’s take you back, you have a great idea for a client. How do you know that the idea is going to work? I guess more so, how do you get around it with the client, if it doesn’t?


Andrew Killey 18:32

Yeah. I think one of the things certainly at KWP!, we really turned into a strength of the agency, we really got inside the client’s business, and we were very proactive. Often the work we did for our clients, wasn’t to a brief. It was looking at the market, understanding where they were, and going back to them with ideas. Clients are very grateful for that, because it shows you’re thinking about them, that’s the first thing. And how do you know it’s gonna work? You don’t. I mean, the truth is, marketing and advertising is a sort of an inexact science in the middle of a bastard art. I mean, you just can’t –


Richard Miller 19:20

– What a great phrase!


Andrew Killey 19:23

You just can’t guarantee –


Richard Miller 19:24

I’m gonna stop rewind on that one.


Andrew Killey 19:28

You just can’t guarantee things, but what you can do is you can, with your experience, and your knowledge and your empathy and all that, you can tick a lot of boxes, and you can be sort of fairly, fairly certain that it’s got a good chance of working.


Siobhan Miller 19:48

Now AK,


Richard Miller 19:49



Siobhan Miller 19:50

Across your entire career, all these hundreds of years.


Andrew Killey 19:53

Hundreds of, huh…


Richard Miller 19:55

What would you pick as your top three highlights?


Andrew Killey 20:00

Well, I guess you’ve got to say getting into the industry.


Siobhan Miller 20:04

And you don’t have to say this, today.


Richard Miller 20:06

You don’t have to say this podcast. Don’t feel pressure to say this interview.


Siobhan Miller 20:09

Being right here, right now.


Andrew Killey 20:12

But that that’s probably … fourth.


Siobhan Miller 20:14

Fourth, yep, that’s fine.


Andrew Killey 20:16

Getting into the industry, I didn’t know it was the opportunity it was gonna be, I’d be lying if I said, I didn’t always want to get in advertising and that, but I did. It sort of suited me and I grew to love it, and I grew to get interested in it. So you’ve got to say, that’s very fortuitous. I’ve done nothing else since so.


Siobhan Miller 20:44

Right, perfect, so your highlights were, getting a career –


Andrew Killey 20:48

– getting into the industry –


Siobhan Miller 20:49

And then that’s it. It’s been a highlight the whole way since.


Andrew Killey 20:50

I think the second thing was, I was very fortunate to meet the lady who I subsequently married, and for a whole range of reasons. Probably the most thing from a career point of view, apart from her support and encouragement, she came from a family business.


Richard Miller 20:51



Andrew Killey 20:51

So the concept of me, as a person in a business having to work late, go away, that wasn’t new to her.


Richard Miller 21:24

She understood that.


Andrew Killey 21:24

She understood. Well she assumed that’s what all business people do. She clearly didn’t marry a public servant. So, you know,


Siobhan Miller 21:34

That makes a big difference, I think, you know to have that support.


Andrew Killey 21:36

And we might talk a bit about it a bit later, what the impact, good or bad that may have had on your family, and in my case it’s mostly good, I think. Then the third, the third highlight for me was starting my own business. Well, and that doesn’t mean where I was previous to that I was unhappy with, I just thought at the time, during the recession we had to have, that the old fashioned model of an advertising agency, which was very, very Madison Avenue and that was very hierarchical. It was presidential, it was slow, it was, you know, it was very formal. What the market was calling for, in the recession, was the turnaround, quicker turnaround, lower budgets, more energy from the agency, because the industries we were dealing with, they’d had their marketing departments and their sales departments emaciated by their boards.


Richard – Siobhan (In unison) 22:42



Andrew Killey 22:42

And they didn’t want to then, have to wait six weeks, or four weeks, on getting jobs turned around by their agency, because of their structure.


Richard Miller 22:52

And it’s an interesting point, because, you know, when you started KWP!, that model, for its day was revolutionary. And so, what are the differences now? Or what are the differences or the similarities now between when you started the agency back in the 90’s, and today’s agencies? I suppose if you were starting a business today, what would the model be?


Andrew Killey 23:14

Well, I dare say it would probably be the same and for similar reasons. I think, it’s probably reflected in your business Crisp, the way – Crisp & Co – the way you do things. I think, just going back to that, the 90’s and the recession, I was talking before about some statistics. It was similar in many ways to what we’re going through now, and dissimilar too. The similarities were we had, by 93, which is at the end of the recession, we had unemployment of 11% in Australia, which is huge. The nominal rate of interest was about 17% and inflation was about 8%. People were losing their jobs. So that’s all sort of similar.


Siobhan Miller 24:05

Yeah, there’s a lot that’s the same as today.


Andrew Killey 24:06

There’s a lot of similarities. The thing we’ve got now is, we’ve got this bloody disease on top of it all which –


Richard Miller 24:11

What disease?


Siobhan Miller 24:12

Speak for yourself, we haven’t got a disease. Glad you’re two meters away.


Andrew Killey 24:18

Glad we’re not in Brazil. But I think what the model then, that we tried to do, we tried to put together was that, very, very hub and spokes sort of thing where, we had a core of people who were responsible for the major things: strategy, relationships, creativity, and negotiations. Then we used to get people to come in and do the things we couldn’t do. But they were non negotiables. And I think today, coming out of the pandemic, I would be – I wouldn’t want to have 30 or 40 people on staff.


Richard Miller 24:59



Andrew Killey 24:59

And I wouldn’t want to have big departments, I’d rather have people who are specialists, who have positions, and I’d rather be outsourcing more of the stuff you gotta do. I think that’s, from what I’ve seen, the way you guys work. That’s pretty much what you do. So I think, Crisp & Co is probably, while it’s different, there’s a lot of similarities between KWP! when we started in April 2 1991.


Richard Miller 25:28

April 2 1991 –


Andrew Killey 25:29

Some would say a day late.


Richard Miller 25:30

Yes. Often been said.


Siobhan Miller 25:33

I think there’s a lot to be said for the hub and spoke concept, you know, rather than to try and make it so that you’re some kind of expert in everything. To have people that you know, specialize in what they’re already, they’ve already got that expertise. Then as you need more expertise, you pull in someone who is already a specialist.


Andrew Killey 25:52



Siobhan Miller 25:53

Don’t try and learn it now, so that you can do everything, because you can do everything badly. Or you can do a few things really well and pull in people that can do other things really well, as you need them, and you’ve got a better team then to put forward.


Andrew Killey 26:04

Siobhan, that is absolutely correct, and the great blessing we have at the moment, certainly in Adelaide and probably other parts of Australia, there is an absolute army of good specialists out there at the moment in freelance. I mean, you could put together three virtual advertising agencies. The other thing that’s happened to make this I think, to your point, you know, you can’t be an expert at everything. When we started KWP!, there was classic media channels. We just, we had the original Apple Macs, and we thought we really groovy about this – about the size of the state admin building they were – but now there are so many different channels to market, there’s so much, there’s so many different social media platforms, there’s so much, not one person can be over all that.


Siobhan Miller 26:18



Andrew Killey 26:56

But one person can be, or a group of people, a small group of people, can be over the brand, the meaning of the brand, and the communication as necessities of the brand. But then why not bring in other people?


Siobhan Miller 27:08

Absolutely, and get them to be just as good at what they’re in there to do. Yeah, their speciality, leave it with them. Don’t try and learn it so that you don’t need them, use them for what they’re already good at, and you continue doing what you’re really good at.


Andrew Killey 27:22

And you know what, it’ s refreshing, you get to work with people, you know –


Richard Miller 27:27

Different people –


Andrew Killey 27:27

– that brighten you up and you go, ‘oh geez, they’re good aren’t they?’


Siobhan Miller 27:30

It’s quite refreshing as well, I think to understand what you’re not a particular expert at. And that’s completely fine, as long as you’ve got one, you don’t need to be it.


Richard Miller 27:39

But the clients crave that, in our experience, you know, the clients that we look after such as, you know, Murray Pest Control, Peter Shearer Menswear, Foundation for National Parks and Wildlife, people like that; they crave the ability to go to a one-stop shop.


Andrew Killey 27:52



Richard Miller 27:53

But they need the efficiency of a streamlined business. We work together, Andrew, on a couple of clients, and when we do that we, you know, we come up with the concepts, the ideas and the stuff that you’ve just talked about and then we’ll bring experts in to produce the stuff, and it is more efficient for the client, but the client has one point of contact, which they love.


Andrew Killey 28:14

Oh, yeah, that’s right. Indeed, I think that is good for the agency too because you own the relationship. At the moment, one of the other tendencies I’m finding a bit disappointing in the industry at the moment, is everyone’s gone to this project by project by project, and they’re pitching stuff out. It might make some really groovy young marketing person think that’s wonderful and that’s good, but it won’t be because, people will only get committed for the project, they’ll fight, kick and scream to get the project, then if they don’t get the next one, you’ve lost that corporate memory, you’ve lost that relationship. I think that’s the thing that is going to really, in the generation, the social media generation, is being lost, and it will be lost to detriment of our industry, and that is the power of relationships.


Siobhan Miller 29:16

Well to your point with Coopers, you know, you were talking about once you understand Coopers, once you understand the brand, and the language, the family, what they do talk about, what they don’t, and also how they’re going to talk about it. Once you understand that, it makes it so much easier to, you know, to write these campaigns and to understand what Coopers, if it was a person, if that’s one person, how they would talk across all of their material. But if you’ve got project by project, surely you’re not going to have that consistency, with the language that they use and with the tone that they use, and you’ll lose it.


Andrew Killey 29:48

Yeah. I think too, that there’s this misguided sort of belief in some parts of the marketing world that there are different rules for brands that apply to social media, as opposed to classic media. That’s complete rubbish. It’s the same brand, the channel to the customer, is the only thing that’s different. So now if you have, in some cases, clients that have agencies that look after, you know, their classic media needs, their social media needs, their research needs, their yada yada yada, and everyone’s competing with everyone. It’s not helping the client.


Richard Miller 30:32

Yes, and it takes away your ability as an agency to be able to afford to go to them with those pro-active ideas on a regular basis, which is what made your relationship with Coopers the success that it was.


Andrew Killey 30:41

Yeah, and not just Coopers –


Richard Miller 30:42

And other clients. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it’s a similar world, but different in lots of ways.


Andrew Killey 30:51

Yeah, and look, at the end of the day, it’s still all about ideas.


Richard Miller 30:59



Andrew Killey 30:59

Ideas that help sell stuff.


Richard Miller 31:01



Siobhan Miller 31:02

Definitely. Now, earlier on, AK, you spoke about your beautiful wife, Pauline, and her understanding and support when you were starting your business. So you’ve got Pauline at home, and you’ve got two, amazing, successful daughters, but how did your professional life impact with your family life?


Andrew Killey 31:09

I think very positively. Yeah I do. You know that even before I started KWP!, my daughters and my wife were sort of exposed to my business every week, and the people I worked with – Friday nights, people, they’d come – I was Creative Director at the agency, and I was Hospitalian, at home. At Friday night, often we’d have a dozen people from the agency back there, eating pizzas, playing guitars, drinking wine, and that sort of thing, and the kids saw that and were part of it, and Pauline was part of it and they were great days, fantastic days. My kids too, I always, you know, the joke about people who’ve got kids, advertising people who have got kids, at some stage in your life you exploit them and use them, as –


Richard Miller 32:27

– We’ve all done it.


Andrew Killey 32:29

Cheap voiceovers, or, you know, people in the background, or in some cases, I use my daughters as lead voices and things. But you know, and Pauline has done it, she did quite a lot of modelling. Not so much for my clients, but other clients.


Siobhan Miller 32:51

Was it really for other clients?


Andrew Killey 32:53

Yeah –


Siobhan Miller 32:53

– Or did you just trick her into getting into –


Andrew Killey 32:54

– No, no, no, no, no. She had a lot of photographic stuff. She’s very good at it, very good. But you know what the thing that I always think about, that my kids from about four years of age, were bumping around recording studios.


Siobhan Miller 33:11



Andrew Killey 33:12

They’ve been on film sets. They’ve been into an advertising agency and spoken to art directors and finish artists and producers and all that. It’s no surprise that both of them have had careers, at various times, in advertising or the media.


Richard – Siobhan (In unison) 33:30



Andrew Killey 33:33

So I think from that point of view, it was good. I’ve got this thing. It’s a real bugbear of mine, I think I’ve mentioned to you before Richard about the – this thing about work-life balance.


Siobhan Miller 33:44

Oh no, don’t.


Andrew Killey 33:45

I think it’s rubbish.


Siobhan Miller 33:46

It is rubbish.


Andrew Killey 33:47

It’s sort of like, you know, sort of saying ‘you’ve got to have work-life balance’, It’s almost like saying, ‘it’s me’, sort of an admission, that work’s miserable.


Richard Miller 33:57

Yeah. That works a negative and you’ve got to get away from it.


Andrew Killey 34:00

And the only time you’re ever really happy is when you’re not working.


Richard Miller 34:03



Andrew Killey 34:03

Well, that’s crap.


Richard Miller 34:04

Oh, it should be crap.


Andrew Killey 34:06

Well it is crap.


Richard Miller 34:06



Siobhan Miller 34:07

I think it’s about having a work life blend.


Andrew Killey 34:09



Siobhan Miller 34:10

Not a balance.


Andrew Killey 34:10



Siobhan Miller 34:11

You don’t need to balance the two as if they’re separate because the reality is that they’re not separate.


Andrew Killey 34:15



Siobhan Miller 34:16

But you can blend the two, you know, if you’re going to be working while you’re at home, and it’s late, if you were a nine to fiver, you might not be normally working. But if you’re working at home, and your family are there, then you’ve got to blend the two. Now if your family are gonna see you working at home and see that you’re miserable doing it, because officially you should have knocked off, then you’re not blending it too well, and you’re not showing them why that’s okay. But if you’re working at home late at night, and you’re loving what you’re doing, and you’re telling your family about it, and they’re involved, and they’re excited, just like you are, then you’ve managed to blend that without it being a negative thing, but I don’t think it’s a balancing act. I think you’ve just got to blend the two.


Andrew Killey 34:55

Well, I tried, one of the things I did try to do is not work at home. So I used to, I’d either start very early, or if I was working on weekends, I’d go into the office and work.


Siobhan Miller 35:10



Andrew Killey 35:10

But when I was at home, I was taking daughters to netball, and, you know, doing barbecues, and fishing them out of the swimming pool, you know, all that sort of stuff. Mucking around with them and having fun and that. I didn’t always achieve that, but I tried not to work at home. A lot of times I’d get up early on a Saturday or Sunday morning, at say 4:30 in the morning, and go into work, and be home by nine o’clock when everyone’s getting up.


Siobhan Miller 35:39

Yeah, perfect.


Richard Miller 35:40

We are very fortunate that we work in a fun, vibrant, exciting industry though, and not everyone loves what they do. It certainly beats digging holes, with all due respect to hole diggers, but, I think once you get into this game, you just don’t get out of it. It catches you, it’s like a bug.


Andrew Killey 35:59

Yeah, I think some people get into it and get thrown out of it.


Richard Miller 36:02



Andrew Killey 36:03

Because they don’t get it.


Richard Miller 36:04

They don’t get it, that’s right.


Andrew Killey 36:06

They try to commoditize it. Well, you can’t do that.


Richard Miller 36:10

No, exactly right.


Siobhan Miller 36:11

I think as long as you love it, and you get a fire in your belly about it, then it’s not, it’s not really work, is it?


Richard Miller 36:18

Well, you’ll never work a day’s work in your life. So I guess the ultimate question –


Siobhan Miller 36:22

– You won’t –


Richard Miller 36:23

– Hold on. No, no, I haven’t so far. There’s no callouses on these hands. So, the ultimate question, Andrew, for all our guests is, what is your definition of a fruitful life?


Andrew Killey 36:34

Now, I’ve got to tell you, when I heard that question, I found it a bit weird. But I did what any old copywriter would do, I looked up the meaning of the word fruitful.


Richard Miller 36:45

Of course you did.


Andrew Killey 36:48

If you get it down to one word, fruitful, according to the dictionaries I looked at, is probably one word, it’s fertile and –


Siobhan Miller 36:58

– Oh god, where’s this going?


Andrew Killey 36:59

Well, no, no. I’ve had a very fertile life, in level. I mean, from a personal point of view, from business point of view. I’ve made a reasonable living out of it. I’ve made some enormously great friends in the agency and out of the agency in the industry. There’s been some very, very good successes along the way. And it’s been a couple of dogs along the way but by and large, it’s glass half full and probably a bit more.


Richard Miller 37:40



Andrew Killey 37:41

So for me, it’s offered me a fertile life at every possible level.


Richard Miller 37:48



Siobhan Miller 37:49

Nice. Fertility.


Andrew Killey 37:53

Yes and … two daughters.


Richard Miller 37:57

Well, Andrew Killey, thank you for joining the Mad Man and The Hospitalian today


Siobhan Miller 38:01

Yes, thank you very very much, Sir Andrew.


Richard Miller 38:03

It’s been an absolute pleasure to chat with you.


Andrew Killey 38:05

And good luck with this, and good luck to Crisp!


Richard Miller 38:08

Thank you very much. This episode of Mad Men and The Hospitalian was sponsored by Crisp & Co, and brought to you from the studios of Podcast Central Kent Town, South Australia.